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 Tire question(s)

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Green Bay TJ

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PostSubject: Tire question(s)   Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:16 pm

So I just went to a jeep jamboree and like the last one I went to (in the Pine Barrens) I got stuck in the mud (back then I had stock suspension, this time I have a 2" lift, same tires). Got pulled twice. Which is ok. I'm not ready to replace my goodyear duratracs yet (even though I have replaced 2 of these due to sidewall damage this year). These are not true offroad tires, they are moderately well behaved on pavement (they are not true street tires either), so I am curious what tires you use for offroading, and how they work on pavement. I'm guessing there is not a tire that works equally well in mud and with the small rocks you see on trails like Powerline at RC. I'm considering goodyear kevlar MTRs (I've been told I will hate these on the highway) for my next set, does anyone have other tires they like offroad? BTW - this is my daily driver, so interco swampers are out of the question - I don't want to buy a new set of rubber every year.
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TJ

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:54 am

The Duratrac are essentially AT's. AT's are just not as good as dedicated mud tires are in the mud, but work better on the road.

The question you'd need to address is really about how much ON road prowess you are willing to sacrifice to get more OFF road capability.

There are no MT's that are "Good" on the road. Good is a relative term, and some people who are used to MT's start to FEEL like their MT's ARE "good" on the road too, but, they are wrong....its about perception.


Think of tires like shoes you wear for a sport.

If you wear basketball sneakers to play soccer on wet grass, you will slid all over the place, because the smooth rubber can't dig down to the dirt and find grip.

If you wear soccer cleats to play basketball, you will slide all over the place, because the hard plastic cleats can't sink into the hard court surface and find grip.

On the basketball court, the smooth rubber sole is maximizing the friction on the court, and you get good grip.

On the wet soccer field, the plastic cleats sink down into the dirt and you get good grip.


OK - Now just substitute ROAD for court, and OFFROAD for wet soccer field...and then think about what TREAD TYPE would work BEST for each.

Very Happy


That's right. The things that MAKE a tire great ON the road make it SUCK OFF the road....and visa versa.


Same for snow...its all about how hard packed it is.

If its soft ENOUGH for a paddlewheel type tread block to sink into it and bite in for traction...then the paddlewheel is the way to go.

If the paddle tread block requires too much down force to sink in for bite...the block will skitter across the top of the packed snow like the soccer cleats on a basketball court.

The harder the snow gets, the LESS WELL an MT will tend to do on it....as the MT's strength is the cleat like lugs, which need to be able to sink in for traction.

Progressively smaller tread blocks sink in progressively better as the snow is packed harder. IE: There is no ONE perfect tread....each has its own "sweet spot" as far as the conditions go.

This is one of the reasons a guy in CO can swear by a particular tire in the snow, and another guy in Maine says they suck in the snow....because they might suck in Maine snow, and rock in the Rockies, etc...because there are so many ways snow can lay there.

By the time the snow is glazed/iced...NO tread block is going to dig in...all will skitter across the surface. Studs can bite in, and/or rubber compounds that feature microscopic tread elements that CAN bite the ice (Bridgestone Blizzak, etc...).

So, deep thick soft snow = paddle wheel lugs to paddle through it....and as the snow gets shallower and/or harder packed, progressively LESS aggressive tread elements work progressively better.


Take the same concept to rocks, dirt and gravel, etc. On slickrock, street tires have great grip...there's nothing to sink into for an MT. Where the rocks have ledges and ridges, the MT tread can grab them like fingers...as the dirt gets softer, the MT's paddles get better and better and sinking into it and biting, but as the dirt gets harder, the little rocks pebbles and loose surface dirt can act like ball bearings and make the tire slip, etc.


So, when you look for a tire, you need to decide which terrain conditions are most important to YOU....and whether you want to maximize your rigs abilities for that terrain....or, perhaps do a 60/40 bias, 80/20, etc...to hedge your bet.

If you want balls out off road in Pine Barrens mud, Interco Boggers, or maybe LTB's, etc...are examples of weapons of choice. They are not exactly good tires for autocrossing, etc. You do get used to them...but, they are noisy and those paddle wheel tread blocks mean your handling is like you are wearing rubber high heels on the street compared to those duratracs. (Herding greased squirrels is what I called the change in steering...)

Once you get used to it, and know what the rig will do when you turn the wheel or a corner, etc...it starts to FEEL normal. After that, you will never go back to an AT. yes/no


On the other hand, if you use your rig as a DD/take long trips....the MPG loss starts to get noticeable....and on icy roads, well, that's what the armor is for. yeah

I had BFG AT ko's on my X....for DD work. I had a set of LTB's on another set of rims for off road work. With no other changes, and the tires were both 33's, I got ~ 16 mpg on the LTB's and ~ 20 mpg on the AT ko's.

The AT ko's last ~ 90k miles per set, the LTB's were smooth after almost 20k miles....a big difference in wear.

I am now running BFG MT2's on the X, which are between the AT ko and the LTB in performance. They are more wishy washy on the road than the ko's, but more precise compared to the LTB's. I have them about 2 years now, and they still have good tread left, a nice improvement in wear over the LTB's. They are less paddle wheel-like off road, but still have fairly aggressive tread blocks, and do better than an AT on rocks and in mud by a large margin. They also have triple walled sidewalls, so they are harder to rip/puncture.

The kevlar MT/R's are very good. They are a little better on rocks than the MT2, and a little worse in the mud...as they are optimized for rocks. They also have tough triple walled sidwalls, etc....and wear similarly....so people expect ~ 35-45k miles out of them.





Xterra with LTB's




Xterra on BFG AT ko's




Xterra on BFG MT2's


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T-Case

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:35 pm

The tires that I have used for the past year came from www.treadwright.com. The name of the tires are guard dogs, they are similar to the MTR's but are half the price. There have been zero issues with them and they hook up great. They perform very well on the road as well. Going down 95 at 75+, no wobble or shimmy and you can still hear the stereo.
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TJ

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:59 pm

T-Case wrote:
The tires that I have used for the past year came from www.treadwright.com. The name of the tires are guard dogs, they are similar to the MTR's but are half the price. There have been zero issues with them and they hook up great. They perform very well on the road as well. Going down 95 at 75+, no wobble or shimmy and you can still hear the stereo.

The Treadwrights work out for a lot of people. They are cheaper because they take used AT tires, and glue a (retread) MT tread cap onto them....so you get a used AT with a more aggressive MT tread pattern glued to it.

https://www.treadwright.com/p-62-265-75r16-guard-dog-m-t-d.aspx




The Guard Dog tread cap they glue on is similar to the old MT/R tread pattern.














If the sidewall strength is not why you went with an MT, and the AT sidewalls are OK, its not a bad compromise. When they use old BFG AT ko carcasses at least you get a 3-ply sidewall. Very Happy When they use an old set of Dunlops, etc, you get 2-ply, and so forth.

TRUCK tires are MADE to be re-grooved and retreaded, etc. Passenger CAR and LT tires are NOT designed to be retreaded. The DOT puts a stamp on the sidewall showing when the tire was made, and 6 years after that, you're supposed to retire the tire even if the tread is still good, due to carcass degradation issues. So, if you use up a tire, and its sent for recycling (Yay, go green!), some of those 6 years are already gone...and the retreaded tire has what's left. Obviously, most of us do NOT chuck a tire that still has good tread on it...and DO exceed the 6 year expiration date w/o blinking...so the tire in the scrap pile destined for your recap might be OLDER than 6 yrs before its even "born".

Very Happy



The downside is that the people who DO have the cap delaminate are screwed, as Treadwright historically just blames it on too low an air pressure (You won't air them down, right?), like they blame every retread shard on the side of the road on too, etc. Some people had the failed tires replaced, and go on and on about how great the customer service was....others were screwed.

So, for the people with no problems, Treadwrights have been great....for the rest, not so great. If you want to buy a set of used tires, at least these will have some more tread on them....and be cheaper than a new tire.

It seems to be pot luck. If you are like MOST customers, you get decent old carcass that isn't already dry rotted, and has some rubber left to glue to, and was mostly round still so it might balance, etc...you will be happy enough.

If you are one of the people who got a dry rotted, out of round or damaged carcass, well, when you post about it....MOST replies will be "Wow, YOU are the FIRST report on a Treadwright recap problem I've ever seen!"

So, its not a consistent product...and if you feel you are one of those people who just luck out....its probably a good deal. If you are one of those people who count on bad luck to have any at all, maybe a bad idea to get recaps.

Very Happy

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T-Case

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:41 pm

TJ you have a good argument. Well I'm not going to argue with you. Yes they are used tires that are recapped. Mine as well as the next door neighbors have had good luck with ours. They are daily drivers as well as weekend warriors. Mine have been aired down and aired back up. Now maybe my carcasses are newer than some of the older versions of their tires, not sure, but they are Yokohoma's. Mine have only been balanced once.

Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones.
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TJ

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:59 pm

T-Case wrote:
TJ you have a good argument. Well I'm not going to argue with you. Yes they are used tires that are recapped. Mine as well as the next door neighbors have had good luck with ours. They are daily drivers as well as weekend warriors. Mine have been aired down and aired back up. Now maybe my carcasses are newer than some of the older versions of their tires, not sure, but they are Yokohoma's. Mine have only been balanced once.

Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones.

MOST people are lucky in this regard...its not like they WANT to ship out tires that will fail. The unlucky ones simply get the ones that whatever QA/QC they do have, misses.

If MOST of the retreads failed, I'm sure it would not be much of a business after a while. Its just that some do fail, and despite propaganda from those with a vested interest....tire caps come off.

For example, even on truck tires DESIGNED to be able to retreaded, etc...most road regs ban them from steer axle use. The idea is that an 18 wheeler for example can throw one of those nasty giant shards of rubber and still have ~ 17 other tires to avoid a crash, etc...but if a STEERING axle were to lose a tire, well, that could be uglier....so even the 18 wheelers are limited to non-steering axle use.

On a wrangler, if you lose a tire, its 25% of your tires....and half your tires ARE on a steering axle....so the percentages are less friendly.

Very Happy

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Green Bay TJ

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:02 pm

TJ wrote:
The question you'd need to address is really about how much ON road prowess you are willing to sacrifice to get more OFF road capability.

That's really the issue. Do I keep the road handing of the Duratrac and count on my friends to pull me out of the mud, or do I go for something with better off-road capability for the 1% of the of the miles I will drive off road each year. Part of it is that I'm a little tired of slicing sidewalls, maybe I'll just go with the kevlar goodyears for my next set. That's where I've been leaning.
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TJ

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:19 pm

Green Bay TJ wrote:
TJ wrote:
The question you'd need to address is really about how much ON road prowess you are willing to sacrifice to get more OFF road capability.

That's really the issue. Do I keep the road handing of the Duratrac and count on my friends to pull me out of the mud, or do I go for something with better off-road capability for the 1% of the of the miles I will drive off road each year. Part of it is that I'm a little tired of slicing sidewalls, maybe I'll just go with the kevlar goodyears for my next set. That's where I've been leaning.

LOL, Yeah, if slicing sidewalls, get the Kevlar MT/R's....and suck up the mpg and on road handling loss. It won't take THAT long to adjust...the Duratrac are at least an aggressive AT, so the transition will be somewhat gentle.

Very Happy

Do keep in mind that getting stuck is part of the game....IE: You never get stuck = you are not challenging yourself.

Very Happy

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Green Bay TJ

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:28 pm

Exactly. I got stuck twice on the trail I was on last Friday, plus I had to make a second run at a hill (with a spotter). Figured I made the right choice of trails to challenge my off-road driving abiltiy and equipment.
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T-Case

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:40 pm

I have used Dunlop Radial Mud Rovers in the past. They were quiet and did there job. Were they tuff.....yep
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BlackMagic KJ

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:18 am

While I am no expert, I figured I should add my $.02..

I have had the Goodyear MTR with kevlars on the liberty for as long as I have had the jeep lifted. I love those tires... they do amazing in rocks and RC type terrian. they hold their own in mud but are nothing compapred to boggers.. they have dug me out of some thick nasty farm mud though. In my opinion, they are the best M/T's for the terrian we are used to seeing.

Also, they are super strong, and they wear fairly evenly for me. i never rotated them once until this summer (OOPS!!!!!) but with normal rotation, you should expect 50k miles out of them...

THERE IS A DOWN SIDE!!!! the ride is very stiff on the highway, atleast for me because in my size, 265/75/16 (32.5/10.5/16) they are load range E, so they are super stiff. The other down side is the fact that they HOWL! i repeat, they HOWL... my size is as loud if not louder then mudslinger's 39" IROK's

Besides the noise, they are an awesome tire to have! and wih the silica rubber compound, they do well in rain and snow as well.

well, thats all ive got for now.. any more questions just ask!!
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T-Case

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:28 am

The noise is the one downside of the MTR's...I had them on my WJ. Yes they hooked up extremely well, but as they got older with more miles on them the louder they got. It actually got to the point were I couldn't wait to get home from work and get out of the Cherokee.
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BlackMagic KJ

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:19 pm

yeah i will agree with you t-case, the noise increases as they wear down. mine pretty much sound like a C-130 Hercules coming down the road now...

BUT part of that is the wear, but also the fact that i never actually rotated them to wear better... im gonna need a new set soon, and honestly, I will actually rotate these, but if you rotate them from the start, they are good tires.
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forrest

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:28 pm

i had a set of interco trxas mt's on my toyota and i loved them. they were fine on the road and they worked great off road.
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Green Bay TJ

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:52 pm

Is there any siping on the kevlar MTRs? I know the Duratracs have some siping. I'm guessing not if the siping can cause chunks of the tire lugs to rip out off-road.
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BlackMagic KJ

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:57 pm

There is some, but also the tread compound is silica rubber compound, which grips amazingly well in rain and snow.
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TJ

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PostSubject: Re: Tire question(s)   Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:08 am

I have a siping gun, and I sipe my MT's, and/or cut new grooves/channels to make my tires work better. I have not had an issue with more chunking from siping. You WILL have an issue with sipes if the sipes are too close to an edge, or angled so as to essentially score the rubber where it will be stressed, say grabbing a rock or cornering, etc.

I make the sipes run perpendicular to the forces in those locations, where they add lateral stability when slippery out.

I angle the other sipes as needed to grab for forward and reverse traction, etc.

As I am doing my own siping, I don't have to make the sipes full depth either, which further reduces the chances of chunking. The way a sipe grips,, they work fine when shallow too, 1/4" for example is plenty....and if the tire wears down, I can simply touch them up.


Here's what my siped LTB's looked like. It took maybe 5-10 minutes or so per tire, and transformed the winter performance dramatically. At RC for example, I went from slipping all over during winter wheeling, to actually having traction where the rocks had glazed over, etc.

The LTB's grab rocks great, so adding the sipes made the rock wrap grippier.



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